Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

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Pkdragon
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Pkdragon » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:28 pm

it's good to see you though, treed
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scraggypunk
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby scraggypunk » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:29 pm

oh hi scis
wisdom
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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:34 pm

Treedweller wrote:I don't come here much anymore, but when I do, I always check out this topic. It's been fascinating to watch your progress, Sven.


great to see you around treed. hope life is going well for you.

idk, this topic is mostly here to show that progress in learning a language comes more from just trying and restarting stuff over and over again rather than following some perfectly crafted program.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:01 am

very sick this week. didn't get a lot done in general. gonna have to focus on school rather than japanese for the next little while to catchup, and then it's exams. might not be able to really focus on japanese for a whole month.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby scraggypunk » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:37 pm

not the end of the world, bud
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:16 pm

Four! things this week:
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I found the coolest way to lookup words!

https://fluent-forever.com/multi-search/

Basically, it's a script I run through my browser that has me type in a Japanese word.

The script runs and opens up three tabs for me, one with a google image search result for the word, the second with recording of a native speaker reading the word, and the third with a Japanese children's online dictionary definition.

Convenience is the name of the game when you're going through a zillion words, so every little bit helps.
---
My Japanese is good enough now that I can follow along with high school mathematics lessons when they're presented as videos - the new words are clear in my head for the duration of the video, and since the steps are basically the same as in English I immediately know what they're talking about. Unfortunately none of the vocabulary really sticks in my brain afterwards just by watching the videos. I'll need to learn them through Anki flashcards.

Eventually I'd like to make my own videos in the language, maybe I'll try and make one over the summer.
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Anki.

I've never been able to use Anki as the "long term memory storage system" it claims to be.

My usage habits basically involve cramming a block of about 1000 words over the course of 2 weeks, followed by 2 weeks of only reading. Some new words will stick, some won't, and that's ok. I'll then find a different word list, and learn 1k words from that over 2 weeks, etc. Repeat Repeat Repeat.

I don't really have a good measure of how effective the method is. I know for sure I'm not learning 1000 words a month, but how much am I really forgetting?

Cue:
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The J-CAT, or "Japanese-Computerized Adaptive Test". Basically it's a computerized proficiency test that you can take for free every six months. It judges listening, vocabulary, grammar, and reading skills.

I'll be taking the test later today. I'm pretty interested in where it thinks my listening is relative to my other skills. My guess is that it'll be Reading>Listening>Vocabulary>Grammar in terms of score, but who knows really.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:11 pm

took the test. grammar's better than i thought, reading is worse, but it's relatively balanced overall. i don't think i need to change how i study based on these results.

Image

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Google (and Youtube!) searching words useful to the point that it honestly blows my mind that I never did so before.

Sometimes, the Japanese language writes the same word with different characters to further describe the word. That's horribly abstract. Let me give an example.

The word "ana" meaning hole has two different kanji. A far more common one, 穴 and a much rarer one, 孔. Here's a picture of 穴

Image

and here's a picture of 孔

Image

穴 has a few other types of holes, but there's something very interesting about 孔. 95% of them are pegboards! Problem solved! It's way nicer to be able to come to my own conclusion about how the language works than the alternative: sorting through a bunch of internet posts in a foreign language, none of which actually agree on what the differences between the two characters is.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:26 pm

I'm reading Doctor Slump, a manga about the adventures of a little robot girl, her creator, and the various people they interact with in their town. It's very, uh, 80's.

Image

Until I wrote this post I didn't actually know that the author later went on to create Dragonball. Cool!
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Beyond that midterms for two weeks. Probably won't do much in Japanese, mostly just checking out stuff to use to study for the JLPT N2.

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HPD
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby HPD » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:37 pm

There's even a weird Dragonball/Doctor Slump crossover during a few Dragonball episodes. It's pretty silly.
"So when I say the fudge shaman flies he goddamn well flies and that's that." - Narts
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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:36 pm

i watched some of the crossover stuff. gag manga power level hype.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:59 am

watching/reading some cool stuff about stephen krashen. he's the guy who thought up something called the input hypothesis.

i'd always heard about the "input hypothesis" and that more input = more language learning but i'd never really looked into the details.

the input hypothesis is basically that language learning occurs when you're exposed to new language that you understand the meaning of. explicitly learning grammar rules doesn't help in the way you'd think it does. neither does memorizing vocabulary. the theory asserts that learning a language is an unconscious process rather than a conscious one. it's a very... interesting hypothesis? programs implementing the theory basically never ask the learner to do translations, grammar drills, or vocab lists. instead, they ask the learner to just read more.

there's a bunch of evidence that seems to back him up. i dunno. it's complicated, i guess.

he does have some practicable? advice:

-you want comprehensible input. incomprehensible input is just noise.
-evidence seems to indicate that your grammar test scores will be ok even if you ignore grammar. this was quite shocking to me.
-some language rules, for whatever reason, will not be unconsciously acquired. grammar rules and correction are useful in this case, but this is only necessary quite late in development.
-academic and conversational language are different things. you need to work your way up from conversational to academic language.
-read narrowly at first, then branch out later - only detective novels, only sports novels, that sort of thing. the shared context makes it easier to comprehend.
-at intermediate levels, learning something new in the target language seems to improve language ability just as much as an intermediate language class does.

there's more but that's a good start i guess.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby scraggypunk » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:27 pm

makes sense to me
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france

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Xenesis
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Xenesis » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:05 pm

Actually yeah. I learnt a surprising amount of Japanese vocab just playing various JRPGs here and there.
IST wrote:Even the worst individual needs to discover the joys of a chicken statue that is also a pregnant blonde housewife.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:52 am

thoughts about being intermediate, implementing krashen's advice, and what my goals actually are from this point.

I watched the first episodes of the anime I'm interested in watching this season in Japanese. Last week, I booted up a short and easy visual novel I wanted to read, set it to autoplay, and finished it in a ~4 hour sitting. I watched an hour long television special on the state of Japanese education now compared to the past.

I didn't do any of these things perfectly with 100% comprehension. There were a couple times I was completely lost and I had to look up words and rewatch to understand what was going on. On the whole though, I knew what was going on, even if there were words I was missing. The point, I guess, is that I finally feel comfortable calling myself an solid intermediate instead of late beginner/early intermediate.
---
i had a really long thing written out about how to implement krashen's advice but it's actually just dead fudge simple: read a lot of stuff that i actually enjoy, dropping it if it's too hard. THE END.

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Treedweller

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Treedweller » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:06 am

This is anecdotal, but for European languages as a native English speaker, Krashen's input hypothesis works. The input hypothesis gives you an excuse to tackle low and middle-brow movies, books, and games that are actually fun to watch, read, and play instead of just doing things that are supposedly good for you, like memorizing grammar rules and vocab lists and eating your figurative steamed, limp language-learning broccoli.

It might just be a function of the sheer amount of hours you can spend on enjoyable input without exhausting your willpower (like, maybe conscious study of a language could be just as good for you if spending that much time studying was actually sustainable for beings other than a cyborg, but I dunno, I like the unconscious thing that Krashen talks about for languages, anyways), but I think you'll see some tangible improvements in your Japanese in 6 months to a year of input. Like to advanced, probs.

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Dragonite
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Dragonite » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:57 am

That's really noticeable for those who have English as a second language too. It's just so commonplace it's a cliche to mention it. When I had my first formal English education I mainly had trouble with more mundane objects(or specially British terms) that don't get namedropped in games much. I'd probably still able to make mistakes there. Although I have no idea why my English output was so bad when I first joined even though I could read everything easily. Very low amount of actual writing experience, most likely.

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Sven

Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby Sven » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:53 am

There's some research done on people from Korea/Japan/China learning English through reading/watching a lot of English media, and the results are good! But the problem is that all the subjects had 6+ years of formal English education in school. It might be that *both* formal study and a lot of informal listening+reading hours are necessary for language development. They couldn't really test anyone that had only tried to learn English through comprehensible input, they don't really exist.

Anecdotally, the English natives who have the best results learning Japanese seem to be both using Anki and reading a lot. I suspect there's something very specific about kanji needs to be formally learned, but the rest of the language can be 'acquired' naturally.

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scraggypunk
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Re: Alors! Dann!! WWN learns a new language!

Postby scraggypunk » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:15 pm

our brains are weird
wisdom
"the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread" - anatole france


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